Open Letter to Catfightreport

[ofecteau]

One thing I admire about my arch-nemesis Catfightreport is that in between his fascination with tabloid-inspired conflicts between B list celebrities, he actually endeavors to understand the business side of our shared interest, how it is currently and what it might become.

He bemoans the startling disconnect between the seemingly large number of hits his site receives and the paltry revenue these many hits actually deliver. I would suggest his experience is typical for just about every producer. This sad state of affairs is far less a function of his or anyone else's content than a reflection of the diverse group of folks who make up the body of the of the fan base.
 
If you take the position that the sale of videos is the engine that drives this industry, is responsible for generating revenue that determines whether or not quality improves or declines, whether or n ot it moves closer to or farther away from the mainstream, I would say that the make-up of this forum is the best indicator of that public and its approach  to products.

The only conclusion one can draw: 95% of female fighting fans are either broke ass dirtbags who would almost never actually purchase a video, or destitute dirt bags who really can't afford them. They content themselves with the free shit on forums like these or the actual production sites from which they will never buy, just look and stroke. I believe almost all the clamor for video samples are from this chattering class. They "vote" in polls. They read and write stories. They are endlessly "curious" about the fantasies of others, creating a ledge for the posers to stand on. They fucking "chat'" for God's sake (Facebook started as a way for Harvard students to cyber socialize, not the dimwits who hang out on this board. Wrong tool in the wrong hands.) What they don't do is buy fucking videos.

This makes them not so much consumers as free-loading dirt bags. Yet they do have one group they can lok down upon, very substantial in their numbers and just downright evil as far as the industry is concerned: the "dumpster divers."

Dumpster divers prowl the sharing sites for pirated videos. They want products without payment, stealing in anyone's book. They are evil suckers of cock who do untold damage to this industry. They should be gathered up and turned over to G.R. for his fun form of Teutonic rough justice.

Pony up, you sad fucks. Pay your fair share. Even if you buy shit like Catzreview, I mean, it makes me hold my nose, but at least you are a dues paying member of the community.

So, Catfightreport, your numbers are all fucked up. Its not your fault. Just look at this forum. It will tell you all you need to know. This is the public.

[Queen Of Mean]

He bemoans the startling disconnect between the seemingly large number of hits his site receives and the paltry revenue these many hits actually deliver. I would suggest his experience is typical for just about every producer. This sad state of affairs is far less a function of his or anyone else's content than a reflection of the diverse group of folks who make up the body of the of the fan base.

The only conclusion one can draw: 95% of female fighting fans are either broke ass dirtbags who would almost never actually purchase a video, or destitute dirt bags who really can't afford them. They content themselves with the free shit on forums like these or the actual production sites from which they will never buy, just look and stroke. What they don't do is buy fucking videos.

This makes them not so much consumers as free-loading dirt bags. Yet they do have one group they can look down upon, very substantial in their numbers and just downright evil as far as the industry is concerned: the "dumpster divers."

Dumpster divers prowl the sharing sites for pirated videos. They want products without payment, stealing in anyone's book. They are evil suckers of cock who do untold damage to this industry. They should be gathered up and turned over to G.R. for his fun form of Teutonic rough justice.

Pony up, you sad fucks. Pay your fair share. Even if you buy shit like Catzreview, I mean, it makes me hold my nose, but at least you are a dues paying member of the community.

So, Catfightreport, your numbers are all fucked up. Its not your fault. Just look at this forum. It will tell you all you need to know. This is the public.

Absolutely 100% accurate and why despite all of the moaners complaining about Megaupload being taken down, it is the right and only thing that should have been done, do as the man suggests, stop hanging around ILLEGAL file sharing websites where producers see their hard work uploaded for free and buy the video's instead.

By illegally downloading pirated material, you put the future of the industry at stake, people cannot in these times afford to see any stream of revenue reduced because some "Wanker" decides that his friends online should see the latest video for nothing, so he breaks the legal notice at the start of the video and uploads it to a site where a couple of hundred potential customers download it, thus costing the company who made it out of a lot and I do mean a lot of money.

The video's are priced the way they are because the producer has to try and get his costs back in some way, film footage, the cost of the performers, camera's , editing, promotion, it all mounts up and thus the people who do this are paradoxically cutting their own throats towards future work by the very producer's they are defrauding

[william c]

wait a minute!  wasn't it ofecteau that was ripping the video arm of this industry not too long ago?  nothing like a pompous, hypocritical, self-loathing know it all!

[bunk]

Its posts like this that will abruptly rouse The Bunk out of his hibernation.

Not Ofecteau's.

William C.'s.

For a guy with ten undistinguished posts to try and follow the well composed mellifluous prose of a card carrying Welsh ast, and to backsass a board elder in the process, well, that will get the Bunk's attention right quick.

If you want to run with the big dogs, William C., you'd better be able to piss in the tall bushes.

[DavidUK]

One thing I admire about my arch-nemesis Catfightreport...

"People don't have arch-enemies."
"What?"
"In real life. People don't have arch-enemies."
"That sounds a bit dull. So what do people have in their real lives?"

 

Sherlock - A Study In Pink - S01E01
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1475582

[JohnMoog]

There are (at least) three entirely separable questions raised here: Should high-end producers (such as we’ve previously discussed) get paid for quality erotic material?  Should Catzreview get paid for garbage?  Should parasite Catfightreport get paid for nothing at all?  The last thing a good cause needs is to be jumbled up with bad ones.  To begin with, I wonder whether visitors to Catfightreport’s site would be considered “qualified leads” (marketing jargon) for the purchase of FF vids in the first place.  More generally, we shouldn’t assume that a “shared interest,” let alone “community” even exists here.  Crystal, Queen of the Hood and Catzreview aren’t erotic entertainment – they’re where erotic goes to die.  That’s another “ledge” for the posers: anyone can be a woman when the threshold of womanhood is set so low.

[HB]

One thing I admire about my arch-nemesis Catfightreport is that in between his fascination with tabloid-inspired conflicts between B list celebrities, he actually endeavors to understand the business side of our shared interest, how it is currently and what it might become.

He bemoans the startling disconnect between the seemingly large number of hits his site receives and the paltry revenue these many hits actually deliver. I would suggest his experience is typical for just about every producer. This sad state of affairs is far less a function of his or anyone else's content than a reflection of the diverse group of folks who make up the body of the of the fan base.
 
If you take the position that the sale of videos is the engine that drives this industry, is responsible for generating revenue that determines whether or not quality improves or declines, whether or n ot it moves closer to or farther away from the mainstream, I would say that the make-up of this forum is the best indicator of that public and its approach  to products.

The only conclusion one can draw: 95% of female fighting fans are either broke ass dirtbags who would almost never actually purchase a video, or destitute dirt bags who really can't afford them. They content themselves with the free shit on forums like these or the actual production sites from which they will never buy, just look and stroke. I believe almost all the clamor for video samples are from this chattering class. They "vote" in polls. They read and write stories. They are endlessly "curious" about the fantasies of others, creating a ledge for the posers to stand on. They fucking "chat'" for God's sake (Facebook started as a way for Harvard students to cyber socialize, not the dimwits who hang out on this board. Wrong tool in the wrong hands.) What they don't do is buy fucking videos.

This makes them not so much consumers as free-loading dirt bags. Yet they do have one group they can lok down upon, very substantial in their numbers and just downright evil as far as the industry is concerned: the "dumpster divers."

Dumpster divers prowl the sharing sites for pirated videos. They want products without payment, stealing in anyone's book. They are evil suckers of cock who do untold damage to this industry. They should be gathered up and turned over to G.R. for his fun form of Teutonic rough justice.

Pony up, you sad fucks. Pay your fair share. Even if you buy shit like Catzreview, I mean, it makes me hold my nose, but at least you are a dues paying member of the community.

So, Catfightreport, your numbers are all fucked up. Its not your fault. Just look at this forum. It will tell you all you need to know. This is the public.

One can only imagine this is what was happening as you typed the above -

[catfightreport]

I'm pretty certain I know the solution though I've never said it publicly.

Much of the content is too expensive.   

The industry hasn't adapted yet.   It will.

It will either go the easy way, and lower prices, or go the hard way, and go out of business.  Is
the true average market value of the videos out there really worth $30 a piece?   Are the membership
sites, with a paltry weekly update, worth $30 a month? 

No, I believe producers extremely overvalue their product.

Want to know what I think the $30 videos are worth?

$5 per video.

You want to know how much I feel the $30 per month should be?

$5 per month.

I respect the opinions of others, but this is my conclusion after much reflecting and thought on these
very pressing challenges.

[Queen Of Mean]

I'm pretty certain I know the solution though I've never said it publicly.

Much of the content is too expensive.  

The industry hasn't adapted yet.   It will.

It will either go the easy way, and lower prices, or go the hard way, and go out of business.  Is
the true average market value of the videos out there really worth $30 a piece?   Are the membership
sites, with a paltry weekly update, worth $30 a month?  

No, I believe producers extremely overvalue their product.

Want to know what I think the $30 videos are worth?

$5 per video.

You want to know how much I feel the $30 per month should be?

$5 per month.

I respect the opinions of others, but this is my conclusion after much reflecting and thought on these
very pressing challenges.

Sorry I don't buy that simply on the basis that the producers cannot recoup costs if they are being asked to charge way below any form of break even price, the industry doesn't have huge numbers buying video's or downloads like a conventional legitimate release such as Avatar.

The numbers are pretty low I would hazard a guess that probably even Leather and Lace's top sellers is maybe in the low thousands in terms of sales, that's why why when the internet came along the catfight magazines died, the cost of production relating to sales revenue taken in conjunction with the low volume produced could not meet the challenge of free pictures and direct promotion via websites.

I think if you went that way as you described CFR, you'd have to drive down costs that would either mean cheap ass video's featuring no name "talent" with limited skills or poor production values from low quality recording equipment.

[steved0109]

I'm pretty certain I know the solution though I've never said it publicly.

Much of the content is too expensive.  

The industry hasn't adapted yet.   It will.

It will either go the easy way, and lower prices, or go the hard way, and go out of business.  Is
the true average market value of the videos out there really worth $30 a piece?   Are the membership
sites, with a paltry weekly update, worth $30 a month?  

No, I believe producers extremely overvalue their product.

Want to know what I think the $30 videos are worth?

$5 per video.

You want to know how much I feel the $30 per month should be?

$5 per month.

I respect the opinions of others, but this is my conclusion after much reflecting and thought on these
very pressing challenges.

Sorry I don't buy that simply on the basis that the producers cannot recoup costs if they are being asked to charge way below any form of break even price, the industry doesn't have huge numbers buying video's or downloads like a conventional legitimate release such as Avatar.

The numbers are pretty low I would hazard a guess that probably even Leather and Lace's top sellers is maybe in the low thousands in terms of sales, that's why why when the internet came along the catfight magazines died, the cost of production relating to sales revenue taken in conjunction with the low volume produced could not meet the challenge of free pictures and direct promotion via websites.

I think if you went that way as you described CFR, you'd have to drive down costs that would either mean cheap ass video's featuring no name "talent" with limited skills or poor production values from low quality recording equipment.

As with most businesses, the highest overhead cost is the HR or paying the people to work for you.

I have heard that the highest selling catfight videos will sell between 300 and 400 copies. So do the math on the profit if you are only selling 100 to 200 copies of a video, and then ask yourself what you would want to be paid to fight someone on camera, because that is what's cutting your profit margin.

So let's say you sell a video for $20, but the distribution company takes $8. That leaves you with $12, and you sell 100 for $1,200. Not too shabby, right?

Well...
You have to pay the talent ($400 a girl?)
You have to pay to rent the space ($200?)
You have to pay a video guy to film this and edit these fights ($100 or $200?)

So right there your $1,200 is gone.

How do you save money?

Pay less for the talent? Well then you get a shitty fight or awful looking women.
Fight in a crappy hotel for $70? Well then the fight is toned down because people do not want to get "caught."
Film it yourself? Well then you need to invest in a quality camera.

We have not even started talking about buying mats or the difficult time of recruiting girls.

Do you buy insurance? How the hell do you buy insurance for this stuff?

So selling this stuff at $5 means you need to sell about 400 videos for this stuff to turn a profit. Is that easier or harder than selling 200 for $10?

Who knows?

[ofecteau]

Catfightreport: I realize that the “big tent” picture of female fighting enthusiasts is chock full of colorful characters, only the upper crust of which actually will part with a buck for a video, but based on my own experiences in areas I know a lot about, and some I know of far less, I gotta disagree. For video quality to improve for the consumer, I think the need is for a set or class of videos to cost dramatically more.

Steve0109 and QOM have done a pretty good job laying out the limitations the current cost of a video imposes on its quality. You end up with subpar, below-the-Mendoza-Line performers and a public conditioned to salivate at not the product before them, but on the anticipation of something new next week. We have Ultimate Surrender to thank for this state of affairs.


    In the 90’s, before the internet completely changed the way female fighting videos were marketed and sold, you had  remarkably fewer production companies making remarkably fewer products. These were cottage industry companies, and largely labors of love. I seriously doubt that California Wildcats, for example, turned much of a profit. I seriously wonder whether or not they even recovered their costs despite charging prices that would cause massive outrage in today’s market. Their videos would be released the same way a mother robin would treat her chick: push them out of the nest and hope the fuck they can fly. Their chance for success lay in the quality of the production: the hotness of the women and the intense realism of their content.

The result: again, I cannot speak to financial side (although I will point this out before someone else does: they went out of the catfight business and into the “sexfight” business) the videos remain near-universal benchmarks for quality. SketchArtiste says their motto should be "Our old stuff still kicks ass on most of the new stuff available today." I would only say to that, most? Please, for the love of God and all that is holy, tell me who today (outside Central Europe) has women that hot in action that compelling? My credit card and I are dying to know.

 Along came the internet and the virtual bursting of the dam. Production companies sprang up all over. But it was Ultimate Surrender who saw the possibilities better than everyone else, saw the way to best exploit the new situation. Prices would be cut roughly in half, and new content was guaranteed on a weekly basis. Cash flow was guaranteed by charging for membership, which worked  as well to make the consumer accept what they were given. The emphasis became on what was new, and more importantly, what was sure   to come to you next week.

This new mentality i.e. a constant supply of new material for a lot less than you were paying for a single CW product, worked as surely as did the ringing of the bell for Pavlov and his dogs. And to the dogs is precisely where US headed, diving for the low ground and greater profits with ever-diminishing attention to the quality side. Starting with the exquisite promise of Janay (has anyone other than Alecia Ames with Joan Wise ever been so associated with a production company as when Janay jumpstarted US?), who was jettisoned after the first year, it just got worse and worse. The quality of the women became basically irrelevant. No woman above the Mendoza Line (the attraction threshold below which a performer's presence in an erotic female fighting video cannot be justified), of Cal Wildcats quality, was ever going to perform for what US was paying their performers, and risk being on the business end of the trademark synthetic penis. And gone was the idea of a locale, i.e. outdoors, to provide texture and atmosphere. All US needed was a mat, a camera and two unattractive women who really needed the money and didn't mind being filmed while having something forcibly shoved up their cooch.

Now , at this point, US began to realize something that the Bidwell family, owner of the Arizona Cardinals of the NFL, had kept to themselves for years: you make more money with a bad team. In the case of the Cardinals, with shared television and merchandising revenues coming in, there was not only no incentive to field a team with a shot at the playoffs, there was every incentive to field a shitty team with no chance of winning. You paid the players less, you kept  less on and off field staff; you kept more of the guaranteed  money. At US, with membership fees taking care of the cash flow and the consumer base conditioned to accept weekly released inferior products at a discounted price, where was US's incentive to improve?

The direction of the industry was now set in stone. To use below Mendoza Line performers became the norm. New companies were formed, but would find it hard to break free of the virtual tourniquet that US had placed around the American arm of the industry. There was simply too much pressure to conform to the 1 video per week for less than $20 formula.

What we have now is a lot of specialized diversity in a market consumed by the low end. 90+% “Two Buck Chuck”  with a lot of different labels, but starting with the same poor quality Central Valley fruit.

I would argue that FC and DWW represent WHAT  SHOULD BE only Premiere Crus or Second Growths. What I would PAY to see is the emergence of a set of Grand Cru or First Growth videos. Videos where a performer such as FC’s Juliana would be just average. Hot, hot women in hot, hot action, in what I have come to consider the 3 Disciplines in erotic wrestling: the Academy AX- style, the JW domination catfight, and the DWW wet catfight.

To get women of this caliber, well, they gotta get paid. Charge $100 or so, BluRay only.

First, you gotta break the stranglehold the US model has on the industry.

[steved0109]

O, I would be very interested to know what DWW and FC pay their fighters in American dollars.

Damn, didn't CW charge $60 a tape? Lord, I had forgotten about that.

And one company that is not mentioned on these boards enough is Extreme Catfighting. They had two great releases, but closed shop for whatever reason.

[ofecteau]

O, I would be very interested to know what DWW and FC pay their fighters in American dollars.

The simple answer to your question : GR and Hana are paying ENOUGH to  get the finest performers active today  both started and to keep them going.  Enough. Unless you believe they are being drugged, enslaved or under some fucking spell, they must be laboring under a better pay scale.

In the entertainment world, of which female fighting is but a small offshoot, she can’t beat them up, but Juliana is light years hotter than the beasts of Catzreview. For this stark difference in attraction, Juliana gets more money. Like it or not, she’s worth it. The same way Dame Judith Densch is no doubt the better actress, but Jessica Alba gets the bigger bucks.

The rest of the female fighting industry is like shopping at Walmart. Lets say you need a knife to carve the Thanksgiving turkey. You go to Walmart, secure in the understanding that they will have them in stock and that they will be the least expensive fucking things you can buy. You take your $2.98 piece of shit home, and you get the turkey carved. But if you are really into it, you just have to have the feel and control of a Hattori or Messermeister. If you are capable of affording, operating and appreciating them, these upper end tools are game changers.

I don’t want to buy my female fighting videos at Walmart. I am happy to spend more for a better product that is more efficient, more aesthetically appealing and will stand the test of time. In other words, quality, not cheap price.

[steved0109]

O, I would be very interested to know what DWW and FC pay their fighters in American dollars.

The simple answer to your question : GR and Hana are paying ENOUGH to  get the finest performers active today  both started and to keep them going.  Enough. Unless you believe they are being drugged, enslaved or under some fucking spell, they must be laboring under a better pay scale.

In the entertainment world, of which female fighting is but a small offshoot, she can’t beat them up, but Juliana is light years hotter than the beasts of Catzreview. For this stark difference in attraction, Juliana gets more money. Like it or not, she’s worth it. The same way Dame Judith Densch is no doubt the better actress, but Jessica Alba gets the bigger bucks.

The rest of the female fighting industry is like shopping at Walmart. Lets say you need a knife to carve the Thanksgiving turkey. You go to Walmart, secure in the understanding that they will have them in stock and that they will be the least expensive fucking things you can buy. You take your $2.98 piece of shit home, and you get the turkey carved. But if you are really into it, you just have to have the feel and control of a Hattori or Messermeister. If you are capable of affording, operating and appreciating them, these upper end tools are game changers.

I don’t want to buy my female fighting videos at Walmart. I am happy to spend more for a better product that is more efficient, more aesthetically appealing and will stand the test of time. In other words, quality, not cheap price.

There are different pay scales for everything in different parts of the world. A 2300 sq foot home in Malibu will cost more than a 2300 sq foot home in Fargo. Tickets to see the Yankees are more than tickets to see the Pirates. I would be very surprised if FC or DWW was paying $400 American for the work they are having their fighters do.  That is a big advantage the foreign companies have.

[kafkod]

O, I would be very interested to know what DWW and FC pay their fighters in American dollars

There are different pay scales for everything in different parts of the world. A 2300 sq foot home in Malibu will cost more than a 2300 sq foot home in Fargo. Tickets to see the Yankees are more than tickets to see the Pirates. I would be very surprised if FC or DWW was paying $400 American for the work they are having their fighters do.  That is a big advantage the foreign companies have.

In my opinion, this is the reason why DWW and FC, neither of which are actually based in Eastern Europe, make such heavy use of girls from that part of the world. Not, as Ofecteau fondly believes, because they are "hotter" than their counterparts in Western Europe or the USA, but because they'll work for peanuts in comparison.