[Bear]

I’ve always been fascinated by the psychology around the I Love Lucy episode where she ends up fighting (wrestling) another woman in a grape stomping vat, while vacationing in "sunny Italy."  I’m sure everyone has seen this episode many, many times.

Now, remember this show was for family viewing, and it aired in the very conservative 1950’s.  Why did the writers chose a catfight as the basis for this episode?  There were countless plot possibilities other than having two women wrestle in a grape vat.   Clearly, somebody on staff was one of us.  But how did he (or she) convince everyone else that this would fly, and certainly Lucille Ball had final say on any script.  Certainly, the show didn’t need a ratings boost. Yet for something that is still not considered “mainstream” this catfight is what has made this particular episode a classic.  I know it’s considered a classic because that’s how it was described on my cable menu.  

Even my wife says that it’s one of her favorites.  It’s also one of the few episodes where publicity pics were taken in order to commemorate it.  And the myth persists that Lucy’s opponent, Teresa Tirelli, almost drowned Lucy in the grape juice because she didn’t understand that the fight was just acting.  That’s total BS, because Tirelli was a renown opera singer and performer in LA for years prior to jumping into the grape vat with Lucy.  She even had a part in Godfather II.  But the story persists, because everyone loves this fight.  

Many movies from the 1950’s had great catfights.  Westerns, pirate movies and the whole teenage juvenile delinquent genre were incomplete without a good old fashioned hair pulling, clothes ripping brawl.  Could that have been a motive?  Or could it have been just plain Lucy-over-the-top once again?

I’m curious as to what others might think.  Thanks for reading and for sharing any thoughts.

[T aka Tony]

Lucy did a catfight scene back in the 40's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD63ulkYHs8

That episode was one of my all time favorites! lol

Cheers!
Tony

[rin753]

Bear says:

"Clearly, somebody on staff was one of us." 

Bear, I don't think you are right about that. Catfights have always been played as comedy going back to English Music Halls and Vaudeville.  I LOVE LUCY was always about slapstick comedy and the grape stomping scene fit right into that genre.  In fact I'm surprised Lucy didn't go back to that well more often for the laughs it provides the general public.

Only a very very small number of people have the catfight gene.  For the rest of the populace, catfights are funny (or action).

A catfight in a comedy has never filled my needs, even when I was younger and any thought of a fight would ring my bell.

Rich

[wasteland1952]

Hey Bear....I would agree with rin753.  I remember seeing that Lucy episode, and I remember thinking at the time, it was pure comedy.  It would be interesting who actually came up with that idea.  One of the writers I suppose.  In any event, I think it was done for laughs, although I do remember getting somewhat excited because you knew a fight was coming.  The two women kept going back and forth and you just knew it was going to happen.  But it was more funny than arousing, at least to me.

And Tony, the movie clip you posted was excellent.  I had seen that quite a while ago.  The movie title escapes me, but the way the fight was done was pretty realistic.  The two women were not experienced fighters, and went at each other in a good old fashioned catball catfight.

One other point to rin753's comments; even today catfights are thought of as funny by everyone who is not turned on by them.  Check out the various YT posts, whereby two girls are really going at it, and you hear people, girls and boys, laughing.  I don't see anything funny at all.  To me it's very arousing, and not funny.  But then again, as you point out, we're a very small minority.

[Bear]

I think that Rin made an excellent point about catfights or wrestling being played for laughs most of the time.  I missed this due to my own bias about these clashes being erotic / arousing.  Good insight!  This reminds me of the mudwrestling scenes in Cabaret and All the Marbles, where the audiences are laughing uproariously as the women writhe in the mud. 

I think that we may be a larger minority than one may think however.  Roger Corman included a catfight in most of his productions just because he knew that it would draw viewers to watch an otherwise lousy, low-budget movie.  Same with lots of the other genres that I've mentioned above.  A good catfight tended to spice things up a bit, drawing more from the erotic than the comedic. 

Note to Tony:  The fight you linked was from Dance Girl Dance and Lucille Ball's opponent was the beautiful Maureen O'Hara.  Both were flaming red heads.  Too bad it was filmed in black and white.  It would have been some spectacle to see them tangle in color. 

[wasteland1952]

Bear, to your point about how many of us are catfight fans, for years I thought there must be something wrong with me, psychologically anyway, because I was so turned on at the sight of two girls fighting.  It wasn't until I discovered the old Crystal Films, their magazine Catspats, and their videos that made me realize this just might be a big deal.  And when the internet really got up and running, that was the perfect avenue for companies specializing in staged girl fights to sell their product.  So, I may be somewhat messed up, but I'm not alone!!!

[rin753]

You know Bear and Wasteland, there is this new movie coming out, appropriately called CATFIGHT.  Anne Heche and Sandra Oh play life long rivals who partake in 3 knock down drag out fights, which have been noted for their violence.

Sounds like its right up our alley, right?

Nope, its a comedy. 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5294198/?ref_=nv_sr_1

[Bear]

Thanks for the heads up.  Checked out the trailer, and frankly, I'm not into those kinds of fights.  I consider them slugfests and not catfights.  There are quite a few similar comments in the "Best Movie Catfight Ever" thread.   

[maine516]

It's so nice to read through a thoughtful and honest dialogue.  Some excellent points and insights raised.  I agree with rin753 and wasteland1952 about the grape vat fight on I Love Lucy, which I recall seeing when it aired.  It was sexy for it's time, but it was physical comedy which was big in that era and Lucille Ball excelled at it, along with her always getting into embarrassingly laughable situations.  Also, wasteland, you are definitely not alone and you may not be that messed up.  The older I get the more I discover how hard it is to define normal.

[The Italian]

I've never met a man who wasn't somewhat aroused by catfights and I think the only reason why the "I love lucy" grape fight didn't have a sexual connotation was because the other woman was ugly.
Had she been a "Sophia Loren style" mediterranean beauty we would speaking of it as one of the sexiest fight ever.
And by the way: I always wondered why no female fighting or wet and messy producer ever took inspiration from this scene....

[Bear]

While I would never use the word "ugly" to describe a woman, particularly an Italian woman, I agree that Signora D'Amico (Tirelli) is no Sophia Loren.  I think "frumpy" is more a accurate description.  However, Italian Guy brings up a good point.  If Lucy's foil in this altercation had been a beauty, then there would have been clear sexual connotations.  There were other women in this scene, and several were young and attractive, but they weren't chosen for that part.  Were they even considered?  I realize that this point is strictly esoteric, but it's fun to speculate that the woman they chose for the fight was purposely not beautiful, and for the very reason that IG points out.

[The Italian]

To me the reason they choose that woman is strictly related to the need of avoiding any bit of sexual innuendo.
I repeat, I've never met a man who thought female fight was in some way respulsive.
Just a bit of anecdotal evidence: some years ago a female friend of mine aked my help to arrange a party and when we were thinking about some ideas I jokingly suggested about having some mud wrestling and to my suprise she agreed.
And you know what? At the party, when my friend and other girls started wrestling, the attention of every single male(and a lot of women's to be fair) was all for those lovely bikini clad girls rolling around and wrestling in mud. And still after some years there are friends of mine (both male and female) who keep saying how much fun would be to have another party like that...

[Bear]

What you say, IG makes complete sense, and I know that there are lots of other anecdotal examples that prove your point.  Many have been posted here and at other sites.

If you and your friends ever decide to revisit this format at a future party, would you please invite me?