[rich.is.harder]

I have a question that I am hoping to get your intelligent feedback on.

There is a theme that I have seen represented in a couple of video companies and storied that baffles me (and frankly turns me off). That is, "loser gets fucked." The "ultimate" version of this is "Ultimate Surrender" (from Kink.com). Isn't the idea of "loser gets fucked" completely backwards? Or perhaps I think too much.

My thoughts (and fantasies) are that an orgasm is good, something worth fighting for, and that a woman would want to be pleasured (aka "brought to an orgasm," aka "be fucked", aka "get laid"). Being "fucked" has negative connotations I suppose, but I would think that a winner would want to get laid. Since in most "loser gets fucked" scenarios the loser gets an orgasm, it seems to me that the fighter should want to lose, right?

The scary, dark, problematic interpretation is that the men (who are the predominant audience) have a rape fantasy I suppose, and the fight is really a sublimated rape scene. Ick!

It seems to me the more exciting (and avoids the rape metaphor) is two women who compete with the orgasm as the prize. In my fantasy, as a guy, I would like to see two women who want me so much that they have to catfight to win my sexual attention. The winner gets to be pleasured by me, and the loser is denied sex!

Is my fantasy so rare or odd? Have you ever seen a video where the winning woman is pleasured? Why is that?

What fantasy is fulfilled by seeing the loser get laid, and the winner denied orgasm and having to do the work to bring pleasure to the loser? Why should the winner after working so hard to win the fight have to work again to pleasure the loser?

I would love to get a petition together to convince Kink.com to get the fantasy right. Or at least provide some alternative videos that are consistent with this notion that the loser should be denied any pleasure and the winner should get laid. To my mind, any catfight should end a pleasurable reward for the winner.

[herboyfriend]

You are right, 'loser gets fucked' to me implies that the defeated woman gets something done to her vagina which she doesn't want and abhors, and that's just female raped by female  - or it is a completely illogical conclusion. The first one is NOT a turn on for me, just like when in stories I came across after a few sentences a girl has a bottle shoved up her vagina for no reason, yuck. I have fantasies in which the winning woman sits on the losing one and rubs herself to an orgasm on her face (while the defeated one has to use her fingers after the winner has walked away), which seems really more logical to me. It surprises me that many people seem to find including a black eye or a bleeding nose a real turn off in a moral sense (which will occur in lots of real catfights though) but totally accept rape as part of a 'catfight' or even 'wrestling'. 

[herboyfriend]

Sorry there was double posting, I wish this site functioned better on mobile phones than it does.

[Joannie]

Both of the posters above have presented very logical positions.  I agree that having the loser "get fucked" is nothing more than a way to have a rape fantasy.

[rich.is.harder]

You guys have heard my opinion on Ultimate Surrender.  I think that they are a piece of shit company that glorifies rape and most of their women are ugly anyway.  It seems as if everytime I see the ad at the top at the page, it is for them.

I have to admit I had not heard your opinion on Ultimate Surrender, but I will search for it now.

How would you feel if the fight concluded with the winner getting laid? Or is the problem the sex entirely?

[ERrorMACro]

I don't think its arousing at all. I think it glorifies rape as well. (regardless of who fucks who)

I'm more a submission wrestling guy myself, I don't mind some fake shit if the acting isn't too bad and as long as I'm seeing sexy girls in sexy positions.

[ThroatStuffer]

You're making an interesting case, but I would say you're being a bit judgmental about it.  You may not agree with the particular kink, but is it really that different than any other form of dominance we observe here?  I don't think it's a matter of whether your fantasy is more or less applicable or logical, I think it's about having stakes that all people involved find emotionally charged.

[DoYouKnowWhoIAm?]

Have none of you guys heard of Academywrestling.com, the company Ultimate surrender ripped off for the format of their "Matches"?

They are still releasing new fights, filmed and edited, I believe, by Ariel X and Isamar, who both work for kink.com nowadays. They took over Academywrestling after Bruce, the guy who founded it, passed away.

Since those two took over, the matches have, predictably, become more about lesbian pornography and jujitsu practice than erotic wrestling, and not really worth watching. Unless you are into lesbian porn and naked female jujitsu sparring, of course.

The fights shot while Bruce was in charge have a different feel altogether, with the sex at the end of the match seeming like a natural progression from the wrestling, and a continuation of the dominance which one girl established over the other during the match.

The sex scenes after the fight, which may or may not involve a strap on, didn't seem like porn, the way Bruce handled it.

It was porn, of course, it just didn't seem like it.

 

[rich.is.harder]

In all the fights i win, i always make the losers pleasure me. i heard and saw some videos about ultimate surrender recently and i agree with richisharder completely. Most of the stakes others ask for is about humiliating the loser but the definition of it very much matches with those videos where the winner still has to do most of the work. I have somewhat different definition where the loser has to pleasure me the way i want while i have the right to abuse and make them feel like a real loser.

thank you!

Now I wonder if we can get this message to these video producers.

[Gaelle]

I didn't follow all the discussion but my opinion about Ultimate Surrender (i saw only a few matches here and there) is that some wrestlers are really good wrestlers but the wrestling action seems only to be a pretext to some sexual abuse and  domination.  That part is often rude, vulgar and not sexy at all (in my opinion) and is indeed a nonsense as the girls who are dominated  seem to like it. 
So the purpose of losing a match and be rewarded with some pleasure seems weird to me.

I do erotic matches in cyber and agree with Roxy and Meliha.  it seems normal that the winner gets some pleasure at the end (and respect the loser's limits) and, anyway, I prefer back and forth sexual action during the match with a wrestling submission ending.  Making my opponent submit is a reward in itself..and losing is sometimes not that bad

[Losing_Lisa]

Ultimate Surrender is not for me since I am not a lesbien . You have to remember the simple fact that the target audience for adult catfighting/boxing/wrestling is men and for the most part, are also scripted matches.

[Ronnie123]

Rich, I actually prefer your fantasy to what Ultimate Surrender produces. What you described in your original posts is actually one of my fantasies, lol.

However, this just means that I don't watch ultimate surrender content. It just isn't for me. However, with that being said I think saying that the company is 'promoting rape' is perhaps a little strong. As you said yourself everything is agreed to by consenting adults. The argument that the viewer is hypothetically not supposed to know about the consent is pretty much null and void because they HAVE to know if they have any ounce of sense at all. The company obviously wouldn't be allowed to film the videos of they didn't have the consent on the girls. Also, I think that the amount of people that watch the videos would substantially drop, even if they were allowed to film without consent in some type of parallel universe. I don't think that many of the people into that type of fetish actually want to see other people get raped/hurt. It's the same with females that have those rape fetishes/scenarios. They don't want to actually be raped in the general sense of the word. They just have a particular fantasy that they want to have with their partner who they trust.

In short, as long as no one is getting hurt or taken advantage of and everything is consensual then I don't really have a reason to condemn it. I may not personally like it, but that's irrelevant. Obviously, some people do like it because they're still in business.

I do agree though that their is a gap in the market for story driven catfighitng/boxing/wrestling matches that play out like you mentioned in the post. (e.g Girls fighting over a guy, or guys fighting over a girl with some background content/story)

If you're basically saying I wish ultimate surrender did this, instead of that then I agree, but I couldn't actually condemn them.

Also, a final concluding point. I think you have attempted to differentiate the two different fantasies on the basis that since one is about something similar to rape that it is automatically morally superior to our 'benign' fantasy of the two woman fighting over a man. This isn't really the case. If we're talking about the morality of both scenarios in a real life setting I couldn't be convinced that our scenario has any type of moral high ground. What about the loser in our scenario? How would that feel to basically exist as an object in someones fantasy and then get tossed to the side after the loss in favor of the other girl? Would that not be emotionally damaging? Would the fight itself not be physically harmful?

[rich.is.harder]

You know what,this is starting to get way too ridiculous. We are talking about a sexual fetish where 2 consenting adults agree or not what's going to take place. People are getting way too judgemental. Who gives a shit whether someone wins or loses in someone's personal fantasy. This whining is getting juvenile. Just because the "loser" is afforded some dignity,everybody throws a fit. We're talking about something that is absolutely irrelevant in life & yet people try to tell a company how to do their business. If people don't like Ultimate Surrender,then don't fucking watch it. Who the hell are anybody to dictate to other people. This is BULLSHIT!!! There's plenty of other stuff to worry about instead of people trying dictate other people's life.

Emmett,
They are playing out what can be interpreted as a rape fantasy. That's wrong IMHO and I think they should be called out for that. A lot of people don't think about their festishes. You can dismiss this as judgmental. But that is precisely the point! I am very purposely being judgmental in hopes to planting the seed of correcting their misogynistic theme. But in criticizing them, or anyone, I think it's wise show them a better way. That is exactly why.
My hope is to set them on the right path.
-Rich

[rich.is.harder]

Rich, I actually prefer your fantasy to what Ultimate Surrender produces. What you described in your original posts is actually one of my fantasies, lol.

However, this just means that I don't watch ultimate surrender content. It just isn't for me. However, with that being said I think saying that the company is 'promoting rape' is perhaps a little strong. As you said yourself everything is agreed to by consenting adults. The argument that the viewer is hypothetically not supposed to know about the consent is pretty much null and void because they HAVE to know if they have any ounce of sense at all. The company obviously wouldn't be allowed to film the videos of they didn't have the consent on the girls. Also, I think that the amount of people that watch the videos would substantially drop, even if they were allowed to film without consent in some type of parallel universe. I don't think that many of the people into that type of fetish actually want to see other people get raped/hurt. It's the same with females that have those rape fetishes/scenarios. They don't want to actually be raped in the general sense of the word. They just have a particular fantasy that they want to have with their partner who they trust.

In short, as long as no one is getting hurt or taken advantage of and everything is consensual then I don't really have a reason to condemn it. I may not personally like it, but that's irrelevant. Obviously, some people do like it because they're still in business.

I do agree though that their is a gap in the market for story driven catfighitng/boxing/wrestling matches that play out like you mentioned in the post. (e.g Girls fighting over a guy, or guys fighting over a girl with some background content/story)

If you're basically saying I wish ultimate surrender did this, instead of that then I agree, but I couldn't actually condemn them.

Also, a final concluding point. I think you have attempted to differentiate the two different fantasies on the basis that since one is about something similar to rape that it is automatically morally superior to our 'benign' fantasy of the two woman fighting over a man. This isn't really the case. If we're talking about the morality of both scenarios in a real life setting I couldn't be convinced that our scenario has any type of moral high ground. What about the loser in our scenario? How would that feel to basically exist as an object in someones fantasy and then get tossed to the side after the loss in favor of the other girl? Would that not be emotionally damaging? Would the fight itself not be physically harmful?

Nicely put. You are of course right that I am being heavy handed in my suggesting that men into Ultimate Surrender are engaged in a kind of rape fantasy. There are I am sure alternative interpretations to the loser getting fucked theme, for example...ummm...I can't think of one. But give me some time, and I am sure I can come up with some other interpretation for a person who seems to not want to have sex then having that forced on her. Perhaps someone else who likes to see a woman forcibly have a dildo shoved in her while (often) she complains as happens at the end of Ultimate Surrender, give a alternate definition than rape. Some women do have a rape fantasy and I suppose this is a way to experience it safely. But I am sure most men who are into this haven't thought it through and if they did might change their mind.

You are right that in a fight the loser will be hurt. And in a sexually charged fight, the loser will likely be humiliated and it most certainly will be emotionally damaged. In the fantasy, that is the very goal both women have is to win to then damage the other in many ways (but hopefully not physically). This is why I keep coming back to people needing understanding the motives for the fight. If the motive is money or poverty or some petty squabble it is sad and not sexy at all. If both women want the man so badly and are motivated by lust and emotional need, the conflict is more compelling. Is it morally right? Probably not, or I wouldn't make that judgment. Is it different and better than rape? I'll let you decide that.

I should say that I do cockfights and the motivations for these are analogous. I would never fight another man unless he wanted the woman we were to fight for as much as me. And the point of the fight is to sexually humiliate the other man in front of the woman we both want to fuck.

But I suppose I don't really want to set up two competing fantasies. They can both exist. I would just like to encourage people to think more about WHY the fighters are fighting, and that would reasonably lead to different conclusions to the fight that are the continually repeated and tired tropes. (I'll go on my rant about why every single time there is a titfight it really does not have to end in a pussy-fight some other day

Thanks for challenging me Ronnie. I'll step back from my hyperbole just a little.

[jborelli]

The simple answer is don't watch. I find it funny that some of you want to see women beat the shit out of each other but when the winner humiliates the loser you want to cry about it. As a female I love the whole humiliation part of catfighting and it motivates me to try harder not to lose. So going forward if you don't like it don't watch it and please don't judge those who do like it. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.