[cffanm49]

Wow, interesting thread, with lots of questions that I have asked myself since I saw From Russia with Love first run in the 60's...Like most, my lovely wife won't fight. She does know my interest. The last time I brought it up while on the patio drinking wine, I even put her hand between my legs, so she knows the reaction the subject gets....lol. But, she still ignores it, and won't even entertain the idea of pointing out a possible rival while we are out. And in the bedroom, she is a great lover, willing to try most anything. But she is also very straight. And I am convinced that the idea of woman to woman contact would be intimidating to her. I believe that opens up a whole new set of questions....why is she intimidated by that, for example. After 34 years of marriage, I am satisfied with where things are. I no longer expect any chance of her changing her mind.

[lumberjack66]

I have read this thread with interest, please do not be offended or take this the wrong way but I dare to say that the reason she does not share your fetish is because you seem to be making it about you. If my husband did that then I would not do what I do with him, if you want her to take part then you need to make it two way. I suggest you ask her what her fantasy or fetish is first and then fulfil her desires, without any thought about request about what she could do for you. then I would bet she would return the favour someday, someway, maybe watching a tame fight with you or role playing, but don't make it about you, make it about the two of you.

Agony aunt Anne x

Anne, thanks for the thoughts.  I agree 100% that it should be a two way thing as most things in marriage should be.  And I think I have done a pretty good job of at least trying to fulfill her desires.  Unfortunately at least according to her she has no fantasies as racy as mine.  Pretty much anything she has asked in our 23 years I have done and never quid pro quo.  Sex on our balconies, in the car, at the cabin.  Like I said, pretty tame, but that has been all she has wanted.  Wish I could find a way to make this subject more about her too.  Something so she could enjoy it.  Thought I did once when we heard on TV that wrestling was the #1 best form of exercise (she loves to exercise), but it didn't work.  Any other suggestions for us?

[CecilBDmented]

Question:  If you met a woman that loved FvsF, was reasonably attractive (i.e. well above Ofectau's "Mendoza" line) and would wrestle in front of you with another woman but didn't want to have sex with you, would you hang out with her in a platonic relationship to fufill your FvsF appetite?

I'd really have to think about it, but probably would not.  If there was nothing sexual about this too me, that would be fine.  But this is too closely linked to my sexuality.  I consider the net my outlet.  100% safe way to get it out of my system, no direct contact, completely anonymous.  Having a wrestling female friend in a platonic relationship... not sure how long I could watch before it wasn't platonic for me.  A friends wife would be safe.  Going to a mud wrestling event or other public event would be fine.  Me alone in the room with two female wrestlers knowing that my wife would not do any of this for me... not sure even my unshakable commitment could survive that one.  And I guess that is part of my question here... why would the love of my life leave me vulnerable like that when it is so easy to take care of?

...and there you have it.  What is it that doesn't ring true?  You wouldn't be satisfied with a woman who would do FvsF with you via a platonic relationship but "a friend's wife would be safe"?  Why is a friend's wife safe?  Most guys I know would love to hang out with women who do FvsF whether they were sexual with them or not.  But not you. You can only feel good about this if it's your wife or the wife of a friend? I'm afraid none of this passes the sniff test.  However I will say one thing.  You have a choice to make. Either follow your FvsF  and find a way to enjoy it without your wife or forget about FvsF and let your wife control your life.  Don't listen to assholes like Alias. If the shoe were on the other foot and your wife was posting about you, this moron would be on your wife's side. There will always be some shit-iot waiting in the watchtower calling B.S. on every man that has a problem with their wife not fulfilling their fantasy.  My question is, as a grown man why do you insist on giving another person that power?  You can find women that will address you needs and desires - but they all aren't going to be interested in being your wife or the wife of one of your friends. You really need to sort that issue out first and then step back towards the light.

[CecilBDmented]

CecilBDmented
Really? I AM THE ASHOLLE?

You don't get to jump on this board and crawl up some guy's ass in your pathetic attempt to Man Bash. No one cares about that crap.  If that's what impresses you go watch re-runs of Sally Jesse Raphael.  SlumberJ posted an honest inquiry and you decided to squat down and take a crap over it instead of simply consider where he might be coming from.  Yes, that qualifies you as the "Asholle" (your typo - not mine). Here is a small suggestion - try picking fights with folks in your own mental weight class -  and for the love of everything that is holy and sacred either learn how to spell or learn how to type, but for the love of God please pick one.

[lumberjack66]

Wow.  A lot to answer too here.  First, Anne, thank you for your thoughtful feedback.  That is EXACTLY what I was looking for with this conversation.  Love the "Swing and a Miss" comment.  Describes most of my efforts to include my wife in this.  ;-)  Glad to hear you think I am like most men, not sure if you are saying we are all jerks.  I think it is safe to say most of us really don't understand women and what makes them tick which is why I find your insight so valuable.

Cecil, I think where I am trying to go with this discussion is not completely about satisfying this interest.  I didn't mean to imply I am unsatisfied in my marriage.  No marriage is perfect, but I love my wife and am committed to my marriage.  I have been married over 20 years.  I guess what I have been trying to say is that it seems to me that part of any marriage should be trying to please your partner in all aspects including sexually.  I knew before we were married that my wife was a bit repressed (with a few wild exceptions) and I get that.  If I were the lone exception, I would just say "that's my wife".  But from what I have seen here, my relationship reflects what appears to be the vast majority of men at least with this particular fetish.  I can't say that the same extends to all unusual sexual fetishes (ie. foot fetish, clothing fetish, etc.) as I am not part of those communities and really not looking to research it.  I would say that I have found my outlet.  If I HAD to have this NEED satisfied, I would want to have my wife satisfy it.  If she refuses, then I guess I will just go unsatisfied.

Finally, to Alias.  I am not sure if something is getting lost in the translation here.  Generally I am not called a jerk here by those who I have spoken with.  I try to be polite, intelligent, and thoughtful.  I was not trying to indicate I was the ideal spouse.  In the real world I am a good husband, a good provider, a good father.  I was trying to say that I make an effort to keep my wife happy and tried to use examples.  I was not trying to make a complete laundry list of every intimate detail of our married life where I think I have done it right, just a few general things.  We have been married over 20 years and most people tease us about how we act like newly weds.  We both look young for our age, work out regularly, are successful in just about every sense of the word.  If you had any information how I could make a woman happier in a modern relationship, always happy to hear about it.  I clearly have rubbed you the wrong way.  Again, I am lumping myself in with the 90% of men who have this interest whose wives feel entitled to have nothing to do with it.

Perhaps again it is lost in the translation, but I don't want my wife involved in some brutal catfight.  My wife has a temper.  She has been in catfights before over what I would suggest were less important things than somebody who is supposed to be the love of her life.  She has been very close many times in our relationship and with one exception where it happened so fast I could do nothing about it, I stopped every single one.  It is not that my wife hates the idea of fighting.  She has fought over much much less important things than even her worthless husband.  I stopped them because I love my wife and wouldn't want her hurt.  I would expect most women wouldn't want to fight any more than even most of us Cavemen manage not to brawl every time we turn around.  However, what apparently a number of women do is take advantage of this fantasy simply telling their men a story to turn them on.  I never implied anywhere that anybody should force their wife to fight.  I have asked why would they apparently deliberately avoid turning their husbands on.

I would disagree with you that this is a really special interest.  There is a reason why it is a staple in Soap Operas, Movies, Pop Culture.  There are schools that now have young ladies on the wrestling team.  There are professional female cage fighters.  And it isn't just us leering cavemen that are apparently interested in it.  I would suggest if anything the interest in Catfights is more widespread among women than it is among men.  I believe it is not a sexual interest for women, more of an empowering thing but certainly nowhere near as Taboo as having your cross dressing husband being brutally raped by another man regardless of race of the attacker.  Personally I think lumping all us poor cavemen in with something that brutal demonstrates more about you perhaps than it does about us.  There are limitations to everything and everybody has boundaries, but I would suggest that if you really love somebody you would do the best you could within your personal boundaries to please them.  My wife never flinched from a catfight before she found out it was a turn on for me.  So would it kill her to tell me about one of her catfights?  Just to make me happy if not turn me on?  Or to make up a story?

My question has been why does it appear that 90% of women would deliberately refuse to turn their men on with the subject being such a mainstream thing.  And I think you have answered my question with the myth of the modern man.  I believe that the modern relationship you are describing with "real man" is a construct of Hollywood.  You take a Handsome fellow with an army of script writers half of whom are women, you put him into a romantic situation where he always says the right thing at the right time, he worships the ground the leading lady walks on, and apparently has no sexual appetites whatsoever other than to derive joy from the happiness of his leading lady and you feed this as a constant stream multiplied by boy bands and pop idols to young women in the western world as what the ideal Modern Man should be and they come to expect that from us poor misbegotten cave men.  Never mind that what you believe in is a complete fiction more so than my flying car is.  That leading man and leading lady are cycling through relationships so fast they dedicate entire magazines and TV programs to track it, but you expect us to measure up to that movie script image.  That is why I believe the vast majority of divorces (at least in America) are initiated by women, why the vast majority of cheating spouses are women, and why it appears women are overall so unhappy in their marriages.  They are busy looking for that Modern Man that they have been promised is out there even as they revel in reading the stories about how all men suck and they troll forums looking for opportunities to tear men down and scream about how intellectually superior they and their countrymen are to the rabble that surrounds them.  

Finally to everybody else... Have fun and play nice!

[CecilBDmented]

I completely agree with the mythological male stereotype and the western women who fall for it.  I also agree that it seems like your wife (and the wives of many others) could make a little more effort to support men  in their FvsF fantasy.  Where we may differ and where I draw the line is in giving anyone else the power to fulfill or deny my fantasy.  I think you owe it to yourself to pursue your FvsF impulse and scratch that itch.

The days of men having to crawl on our knees begging for satisfaction from our GFs or wives should more often than not, be a thing of the past. There are women that like to satisfy their man.  That is always the type of man I am and always the type of man I plan to be.

[colt 45]

Slumber, you and I have a similar problem with our wives NOT embracing or at least trying to understand.  Ignore Alias by the way.  I don't think you can do more than you have.  Somewhere along the line you have to say "Okay, I accept the fact you will not understand or indulge me even tho I indulge you."  My wife I know has fantasies especially about Chuck Norris, oddly enough as have several ladies I have known, but I have no problem with this.  She won't share them however.  In her case I'm supposed to magically know what she needs/wants and respond. 
I'm sure part of the problem is she is a good Christian woman and I respect that but I wish she was just a little more understanding and accepting.

Will she ever change? NO.  Will I, I've tried and it don't work.  So that leaves us to agree to disagree and go one.  Our whole relationship does not hinge on her acceptance of my fetish or me hers.  We just have to love each other.   Don't know if this helps or hinders but nice ladies should be trated as such and not ridicules, nor should you be.

[lumberjack66]

Welcome to our big Tent, Colt.  Nice you turned to the Dark Side... we have cookies.  Probably have to agree with your take on Alias.  I think we have gotten to the point where she has empirically determined that any sexual interest we may or may not have are bad and her and her interests are the cats meow.  Hopefully she well revel in her victory, move back to the "Superior French Speaking Canadians and their Sexually Superior Men Group" and leave us poor Cavemen alone in our unenlightened ignorance.

Cecil, I understand your point.  I am denying myself something that is important to me but I think it is worth it.  Just as I deny myself other things in order to be married.  It is part of the package in my opinion.  As I said, I have what I feel are acceptable outlets and deny myself the unacceptable ones.  I am in no way saying my line is better or worse than anybody elses.  It is just the line I draw.

To Cecil's point, some men may feel differently about it.  Some men might decide they want to see women wrestle/fight/whatever and therefore would find a wrestling buddy which could in my mind leave the door open to more.  They might hire strippers or prostitutes to wrestle/fight/whatever.  They might make a point to search for it on trips.  Etc.  Perhaps some men have platonic sexual interest buddies.  I suppose in a way, that is what all of you are here for me... platonic sexual interest buddies.  But I am not sure if that would work for me in the real world.  Which is part of my confusion on all of this.  In my mind, if your partner has a major sexual fetish and you refuse to have anything to do with it, it is approximately the equivalent to refusing to have sex.  This is not to say a woman must fight if her man says so.  What I am saying is that for most of us that I have spoken with, watching a video with us, telling us about a fight you once had, or a fight you would like to have would be more than enough.  My experience has been that it is not that women are horrified by the idea (based on chats with women outside of this room).  It is just not their thing.  They might feel it is silly or degrading so they don't want to have anything to do with it.  I guess that is where I don't get it.  If you told me that there was a video I could watch with my wife that would make her happy, get her horny, pretty much guarantee I would have sex that night, and would increase the odds that my marriage would be happy and last longer, I think the vast majority of Men would watch it no matter how silly we thought it was.  We might be babies and complain about it, but we would do it.  I am sure most of us have been through a chick flick or two for exactly those reasons.  If my wife told me sucking her toes drove her wild, it turned her own when I wore a bow tie, it turned her on to role play, she loves it when I speak gaelic, or any of 1000 other things, I'd do my best to accomodate her sexual interests.  It is 100% in my best interest to do so.  It is logical, practical, reasonable, loving, romantic, etc.  What I struggle with is why is it the vast majority of our wives or girlfriends refuse to do the same for us.  Is it in Cecil's wife's best interest to have Cecil searching for a wrestling buddy?  Is it in my wife's best interest to have me exploring an area of my sexuality with all you?  Or would it be more in her interest when she is in the mood to tell me a story?  To pull up from "Russia with Love" or "10 Million BC" or 100 other movies on netflix and suffer through them with me?  To whisper to me in a crowded place that she could kick that woman's ass?

I suppose if our particular fetish is too extreme and they cannot have anything to do with it you might say that we are sexually incompatible.  That happens too.  One partner wants to have sex nightly, the other feels once a year is plenty.  Doesn't mean the collapse of the relationship, but it is certainly going to put a heck of a strain on it.  What makes me question this is that I don't think for most of our interests this is too extreme for our ladies.  They don't turn off the soaps when there is a catfight.  They don't flee in horror when there is a catfight in the bar.  They don't avoid movies that have catfights in them or strong female characters fighting.  They don't avoid TV shows where the female constantly are fighting with each other in one way or another.  They snap up magazines which consistently focus on every potential catfight there is.  When Jolie was busy stealing Anniston's man did they shun the tabloids because of the lurid catfight references?  Nope.

So then why do 90% of our wives/girlfriends/etc. refuse to have anything to do with this in any way shape or form? 

[DoYouKnowWhoIAm?]

Sure, sorry.
I was stupid enought to think some people around live in the real world 

This is not the real world. This is a place where people come to create and share their fantasies with other people. If you are too stupid to understand that, you will get nowhere in your discussions here.

You say you have a man to share your fantasies with, but throw insults at another man for trying to share his fantasies with his wife.

Lumberjack is not trying to force his wife to do anything. He is asking for advice on how to PERSUADE her to talk to him about fights she has had in the past.

Do you get it now?

[Nutmeg]

Alias, you called two male members here rapists for liking catfights.  You treated Foxyanne derisively for saying she tried to work with her husband's interests. You call men who like catfights  a hideously offensive word to the mentally challenged. I am not sure how any person is supposed to get that you don't either hate this fetish with a passion or are in fact trolling this thread. Personally I think you come across more like a person who hates feminism doing a bad parody of a feminist. As a woman I find you embarrassing and shrill.

Lumberjack has responded to you respectfully. You hurl childish abuse back. There was a serious, thoughtful and until you showed, respectful discussion occurring, a rare thing at times on this site. I think it should be allowed to return to that. So behave like an adult or don't bother to return.

As for reasons why women may not have an interest, well there are several possible reasons:

1. It is seen as trashy. let's face it, the catfight fetish is related strongly with substance wrestling in the 70's and 80's, not a high point of class. Same with things like soap opera catfights. It is like watching Paris Hilton or the Kardasians. Sure we will WATCH the behaviour but not DO it. Also the image of the men who indulged in watching the past time was never the best. So there is quite the sleaze factor attached to it in the mainstream. 

2. "But I can't fight! " Most women have likely not been in a fight before. I spent my time in a mainly male household, attached to a bully and several violent women growing up so I am hardly typical. Plus some of my early efforts to do catfight related cyber was more efficient than erotic So you are likely going to have someone who is feeling like she has no clue what she should do and is very self conscious doing so. Or feels silly discussing it.

3. "So you want to see me beat up? Or beating someone else up? " Self explanatory really. You are admitting a sexual desire based on violence. And as women we are socialized to avoid that and to be leery when a man suggests it. Male sexual violence tends to not end well for women, especially in popular culture. This might be one of the hardest stigmas to overcome. I would suggest understanding what YOU get from the fetish before hand so you don't end up looking like Chuck Traynor by the end of the day because you stumble around the topic too much. If you seem evasive, the worst case may be assumed.

4. The body contact. If you are into the lots of female body contact aspect of the fetish, your SO might feel that's a little too lesbian for her liking. In real life, I despise being touched. A suggestion I try oil wrestling would go badly. Some people aren't body contact people so that could be an obstacle.You still might be able to get her to discuss it but if she feels strongly enough, that may be enough of a turn off to shut down the subject.

5. You need to involve another woman in this. Which brings questions, insecurities etc.. Any time you bring another person into your sex life the obvious question is why. The best bet might be to keep the other woman in your fantasies as a celebrity (not a threat to steal you away) or some fictional woman. If you choose to discuss your fantasy with your wife and your recently divorced neighbor, you are on your own

It gets even weirder if you choose to introduce a whole couple to the equation. The old the wives fight while the men watch makes you seem like you want to be swingers. Now you seem like you want to share her with another man.

I think the bigger obstacles to overcome is to convince her you are not wanting her to be harmed or do harm to someone. Or are looking to replace her or have to fight for the privilege to be with you. Forgive me if I rambled a bit, it is late at night and I had a few points to cover

[colt 45]

No Miss Ann I don't think you are rambling at all.  My wife found out about my fetish before we were married.  She is the jealous type and was looking in my desk and found some stories and pictures.  This led to a confrontation that basically was Are you sick, I could never do anything like that.  I explained I didn't want to see her hurt but instead see her trying to be the best.  I'm been told I'm a bit competitive maybe this is part of the reason I like this genre.  I once asked the question, Am I strange?" on the old Combative Women site and Barb said no I wasn't but also that my quirk was not going away and I had  best find some way to get along.  This I learned, she will NEVER understand nor participate.  End of story.  I still love her and want to spend my life with her so I don't bring it up or indulge at home when she's around & I keep my thoughts to myself.  It is frustration and I sometimes get on here and vent but that's the way it is.

Now I'm rambling

[CecilBDmented]

No Miss Ann I don't think you are rambling at all.  My wife found out about my fetish before we were married.  She is the jealous type and was looking in my desk and found some stories and pictures.  This led to a confrontation that basically was Are you sick, I could never do anything like that.  I explained I didn't want to see her hurt but instead see her trying to be the best.  I'm been told I'm a bit competitive maybe this is part of the reason I like this genre.  I once asked the question, Am I strange?" on the old Combative Women site and Barb said no I wasn't but also that my quirk was not going away and I had  best find some way to get along.  This I learned, she will NEVER understand nor participate.  End of story.  I still love her and want to spend my life with her so I don't bring it up or indulge at home when she's around & I keep my thoughts to myself.  It is frustration and I sometimes get on here and vent but that's the way it is.

Now I'm rambling

Well - at least no one of any significance.  If someone suggested you or any other male were anything less than 'straight' because of your enjoyment of FvsF, I'd have to think they were using the term in a different vernacular than it's used in San Francisco CA where I live. In the long run I suspect your marriage may be better off because you aren't ablle to share this side of your fantasy life with your wife.  Maybe that works out better for some relationships and causes them to last longer or at least focus on areas that will engage and endure with the persistence of actual couple for the length of the relationship. I don't believe monogamy suits many relationships, but it's the template so many of them  use to paint their personal prisons.  I think when people are able to step outside the box of the status quo or the 'norm' they may be rewarded with a more carefree way of living loving and enjoying life.  I also think that box serves and protects many relationships from self-destruction.  I suppose the trick is in knowing which method works for you and your situation.  Bottom line:  If you've found a way to reconcile your situation, more power to you!

[lumberjack66]

Some fantastic replies here.  The insight on how this includes others makes sense.  It opens up lots of possible conflicts including the swinger angle, the lesbian contact as well as the possible violence.  I am sure each of the 90% has one or more of Meg's 5 barriers to this and it adds up to 90%.  Makes perfect sense when you put it that way.  Thank you so much, Meg.  I believe in my own personal case that despite my emphatic denial, my wife believes that I want to see her in some kind of insane fight to the finish with me as the prize.  However, she elected to stay married to me in spite of the fact that I am a freak at least in her mind.  So does anybody have any suggestions how one might maneuver past those barriers?  I mean how would you suggest that we get the ladies in our life to consider it when they have immediately throw up barriers like that?

Also for Meg and Anne... ramble... please... I need some good Rambling to figure this out.  Thanks!

[cffanm49]

Wow, interesting thread, with lots of questions that I have asked myself since I saw From Russia with Love first run in the 60's...Like most, my lovely wife won't fight. She does know my interest. The last time I brought it up while on the patio drinking wine, I even put her hand between my legs, so she knows the reaction the subject gets....lol. But, she still ignores it, and won't even entertain the idea of pointing out a possible rival while we are out. And in the bedroom, she is a great lover, willing to try most anything. But she is also very straight. And I am convinced that the idea of woman to woman contact would be intimidating to her. I believe that opens up a whole new set of questions....why is she intimidated by that, for example. After 34 years of marriage, I am satisfied with where things are. I no longer expect any chance of her changing her mind.

And, for the record, and perhaps more insight into her attitudes, my wife has a her me and him fantasy. A three way. I have told her I am willing to give her that fantasy, but she wants to keep it a fantasy and won't do that either.

[lumberjack66]

This thread just shows that no two people are alike.  My husband and I have a great relationship and a big part of what makes it all tick is he and I being open to what we like and how we can have fun fulfilling those fantasies.  I just purchased a stocking stuffers for him of a couple of female catfight DVDs that we can watch together.  It is all in fun.  Have a terrific holiday everyone!

I am sure I have mentioned it before, but I hate your husband.  ;-)  Just the insane jealousy talking.  Seriously that is the exact healthy approach that I am talking about.  A bit of sexy fun will hurt nobody.  In my mind it would be no different than a wife getting her husband a bit of sexy lingerie for him.  Makes perfect sense.  Hopefully you get as much reward from it as he does.