[lumberjack66]

I have been thinking about this a lot the last couple weeks.  Partly triggered by another topic here, partly because I am alone in a hotel and have too much time to think.  I implied in another post http://www.freecatfights.com/forums/index.php/topic,35474.0.html that women who do not embrace their mens fantasies may not really love them.  I was chastised a bit for this statement, but I stand by it.  One of the signs that you love somebody is your desire to please and take care of them.  This should work both ways.  I bring flowers,  write emails, letters, and poetry, call every single night I am on the road, do my best to take care of my wife's every need when I am home, tell her constantly I love her and that she is beautiful, never show interest in any female starlet or to the best of my abilities any other woman, and make every effort to please her in our bedroom no matter how I might feel when she is interested in sex.  If ladies watched a movie where the husband didn't do those things, I think the immediate assumption would be that he was selfish or cruel, didn't love her, and by the end of the movie either the lout would change or she would find true love with somebody else.  So why is it that the opposite is not true?  Why is it OK if the woman calls only when it is convenient, only makes love when she really wants to, can talk endlessly about romantic lead after romantic leads perfect lines or rippling abs, complains constantly that her man is not in the same shape he was 20 years ago, and refuses to have anything to do with the one thing that turns him on more than anything else in the world?  As human beings our sexuality is a big part of who we are.  Demanding that we somehow surrender that part of ourselves because it is inconvenient is not love, it is control.  In my case, I know a large part of why my wife reacts this way is the HORRIBLE advice she got from her friends when I revealed my secret.  As a result of that, decided to put an open letter to women offering my two cents on my facebook page https://www.facebook.com/ljack66 so maybe some of the ladies learning their man is into this might get some decent advice from one of us perverts afflicted with this obsession.

It is not that I think every woman whose man is into this needs to take up MMA classes.  There are a thousand things that you can do to embrace this to your individual tolerance level without ever so much as breaking a nail.  But based on my experience out here in cyberspace and years of conversations about 95% of women will have nothing to do with this fantasy no matter how much it turns their man on.  Some may tolerate it, but they will not speak about it, engage their men about it, or have anything to do with it.  How many things are there that women love their men to do that Men would so universally refuse to do?  What if 95% of men refused to buy their wives flowers, to hold their hand in public, or tell them they were beautiful?  What if 95% of us refused to hold you after we made love, or engage in foreplay?  Unthinkable. 

I know for myself, this is the prevailing force of my sexual identity for my entire life and my wife will have NOTHING to do with it.  Of course there are many things about her that turn me on, but this is the strongest sexual interest I have and she will not even talk to me about it even though she has physically fought other women or engaged in confrontations that easily could have resulted in all out fights in the past over things as trivial as a parking spot, a place in line, clothing in stores, or household appliances or nicknacks costing less than $10.  She of course tells me she loves me, but it is hard to accept when apparently I mean less to her than a $10 nicknack.

I have often told the women who engage in this for their husbands how amazing they are that they tell their husbands stories, or watch videos with them, chat in the chat rooms here with them, or engage in a bit of role play, or even do a bit of submission wrestling. glamor boxing,  or rules catfights for their men.  You are all amazing.  But really, don't you think you should be the norm and not the exception?

[JT Edson]

Lumberjack,

Wow. I see this really upsets you. You stated your case very well. I would love to chat with you on this subject sometime.

Ladies what are your thoughts?

[Luckyman]

I have the best mother-in-law in the world.  I say this because when Nancy and I were dating and it reached the point where we were thinking about sharing our lives together, her mother said she should ask me what my sexual fantasies were.  She said all men have them, and the more strange or deviant they were the less willing men will be to share it with anyone, especially their girlfriend and even their wife after they are married.  She said the only way to know was to be forthright and ask.  Then she said you have to ask yourself if you can live with it.  If not, then it's best to know before you get married.  When Nancy asked me I first told her, "Oral sex."  She rolled her eyes and said, "Okay, so college boy would like a blow job.  I really want to know what turns you on that you would never tell anyone about."  So I told her about my catfight fetish and she said she could live with that.  The only two things she said she couldn't live with would be a pedophile or a cross dresser.  She said the thought of her man dressing up in women's clothes just irked her for some reason.  I showed her two videos I had.  It was actually a very difficult thing for me to do at the time and I can't explain why.  The only thing I can equate it to would be if your mom said, "Son, I want you to masturbate in front of me, so I can see if you're doing it right."  There was this feeling of "I'm sharing too much," coupled with the feeling that now I would have to kill her because she knows and if we break up could use it against me.  Anyway I wasn't comfortable sharing that with her.  I did feel better when she shared her fantasies with me (which I'm not going to share).

It led to her trying to please me (arranged matches while I secretly watched in the next room), but I didn't like that so we quit. 

[enigma911]

Luckyman...how di that work if u dont mind sharing....so u watched ur wife fight while u were in a diff room? did the other gilrl know u saw...did u pick the other girl..howd u get her to do it....i ask becauee my girl n i spoke on this very topic n she is interested in doing a fight for my bday...but we are undecided if she should find a girl for her to do it with or if i should..curious to hear how u n ur girl did it

[Bear]

Well Jack, you and I have TWO things in common: 1) this fetish and 2) wives that won't talk about it. 

But I don't think that it has anything to do with them not loving us.  It's more of an individual issue for them and probably has a lot to do with deep seated morals that were established in their youth.  Personally, I write it off to my wife's Presbyterian upbringing.  I mean I couldn't remotely fathom my mother-in-law doing what Luckyman's did and telling her daughter to ask her prospective husband about his sexual fantasies.  I seriously doubt that either of my in-laws had any of their own, unless it involved a dictionary.

That's just the way it is.  If she can live with me knowing that I get aroused by watching two women wrestle, then I can live with her not being comfortable about discussing it.  After all, she's tolerated my many faults for all of these years, so put into perspective, it's not that big of a thing.  That's why I frequent this website.  Here we CAN talk about it among like minded people, so this is a surrogate.  Not as good as having a wife who would embrace at least an occasional discussion on the topic, but far better than no discussion at all.  So it's all as OK as it can be.  And thanks to all of you who come here and open up.  It's like a nightly visit to the local pub. 

[Luckyman]

As we were both at the university at the time, "getting a girl" wasn't a problem.  Nancy would just invite one of her girlfriends over.  There was some contention when she asked me who I'd like to see, and I made the mistake of mentioning a name.  That started a series of 20-questions from her, like "So what is it with her?"  I soon learned I wasn't allowed to pick.  And that was okay with me as she didn't have any ugly friends.

The fights (wrestling), however, weren't real.  It was obvious they were putting on a show "for someone," and I didn't like it that the girls knew I was there, even if out of sight.  In some cases (with the really hot chicks) I'd imagine they had a crush on me and agreed to fight Nancy because they thought if I saw how good they were I'd ask them out, etc.  A fantasy in my mind I'm sure.  But I didn't like the fact that "my secret" was getting known by other people, and that's what really killed it for me.  I told Nancy that watching the real thing wasn't as sexy as I thought it would be.  It was much more interesting just to watch a video or read a story, and I told her not to invite any more girls over.

It wasn't until we'd been married several months that Nancy started taking boxing lessons at the gym and learned to like it.  And, I think it came as a surprise to both of us how her wearing her "fighting gear" in the bedroom improved our sex life.  She would spar with other girls at the gym, and though I cheered for her the fact that they were wearing headgear, and usually wearing sweats, made it about as sexy as sumo wrestling.  And then there came that fight with Monique...so now we're going down a different road.  Exciting and scary as well.

[Patrick]

... I don't know if I'd go as far as to say that such women "don't" really love their men"... but I do concur on the spirit and other particulars of your post !

What is it about catfighting that so mortifies women ? *

* And I refer here to the very concept, of men liking this, and not of those women actually getting down to doing one.

Some years ago, my then girfriend, totally out of the blue, told me her top sexual fantasies and then, of course, she asked me what mine were.

Hesitating, I told her of my foundness for catfights... specifiying that I was NOT into real catfights (i.e. women actually hurting each other) and going out of my way to NOT imply that I wanted HER to get in catfighting.

Well, she started by saying she was "very disapointed" in me... and then read me the riot act (to this day I still think that if I'd instead answered "Doint it with chimps", that I would have gotten less of an earful from her, she was so indignant about it and such...

The ironic thing being that she would have made for a first rate catfighter, solidly built and a bad temper that used to get her in many fights... but usually vs. men !

To boot, ten years later or so... I found out that she was now "into women" (LOL)

But back to Lumberjack's point, yes, beyond catfighting or even sexual fetiches... don't most couples (or for that matter friends, and families) have to compromise, even on stuff theyb really don't like even it it's only now and then and only dipping the tip of your little toe in ?

I'm sure that most catfight fans would settle for just being able to talk about it now and then "Say, see that bank teller there ? Think you could take her ?", or about t.v./movie catfights or potential catfights.

Or, say they don't like a co-worker or actress/singer ect... to answer, even without going on and on about it "What would you like to do to her ?".

But no, in most cases (mine and those of people I've spoken to over the years on sites like this one), it's a flat "No and never bring that up again"... if not the said riot act reading along with it... even if the catfight discussion involves no nudity or erotic aspect, actual violence...

... but if a man reacts like that when his wife asks him to "do her" wearing a fireman's hat, then we'd get an earful again...

Meanwhile, some of us go out of our way to sit and watch "Danielle Steele" movies with them ect... (mind you, it's less of a strain when it's one with Lynda Carter in it)
 

[lumberjack66]

I wanted to try to clarify a bit here... I love my wife.  She tells me that she loves me.  I don't think there is another man she loves more, but I honestly question how much she really loves me from time to time.  I think there are a slew of reasons that make her hyper prudish in our bedroom and I understand many of those reasons.  We all have history, interests, pre-dispositions.  I won't go into all the very good reasons that my wife might not be willing to do this and might in general have aversions to anything sexual in nature.  I'd point out that in spite of all those aversions, she has no issue telling dirty jokes, watching tv shows with crude humor, sex scenes, or violence in general, discussing sexual issues with her friends and family, flaunting her beauty when it is convenient for her, or having other men flirt with her.  While she is a prude in our bedroom, I doubt anybody else who knows her would guess she was a prude or just how prudish she is.  She is a fan of sports including Men's Wrestling and Boxing.  I have literally seen her fight over a $10 decoration, and I have literally stopped her from fighting a dozen times or more so I know that she is not afraid of confrontation or aggression.

I am sorry if this comes off as a bit of a rant.  Not the first time I have ranted, and probably not the last.  I would say what I was upset about was a combination of some things my wife said about a friend's wife that were entirely hypocritical, some discussions here (in particular the discussion of women who tell their husbands stories), and quite honestly some women who were hitting on me in the real world.  I am a reasonably handsome, intelligent, caring, compassionate, successful man.  It was not the first time that women have hit on me and it likely will not be the last.  So why if other women want me would my wife who says she love me deliberately leave me so completely sexually unfulfilled?  In essence, she leaves me vulnerable.  She knows other women will hit on me.  She has seen it happen many times.

I would say first of all she started to deny me sexually before this all came out for Control.  I think that is a pretty prevailing theme in our society.  Men want to have sex, women can deny us, therefore women believe that gives them control in a relationship.  And in a way they really are correct about that.  For thousand years men have tried just about anything to woo women.  Society largely exists because men were trying to somehow impress women.  Fortunately women have occasionally thrown us a bone so it has worked out.  But I think the reality is that feeling of control is an illusion particularly in modern times.  Women believe that if they occasionally satisfy their man, the men will do anything the women want them to.  But the control only exists to the extent that the man is faithful to his woman and no other women want him.  As soon as a man decides sex is more important than his commitment and finds a woman willing to do whatever it takes to steal the man, the control is over.  That is until the man belongs to the other woman and then typically the cycle begins all over again.  I think we have all seen it before and probably multiple times.

Of course it works both ways.  There are men that want to control the women.  And I am sure there are plenty of women here (and on just about any other forum) that could go on for hours about how terrible we are.  I believe that kind of caveman control of women is pretty much statistically dead.  It just doesn't work.  Of course there are the men too who simply forgo any commitment to any woman and spend the bulk of their time hoping from woman to woman.  What is amazing to me is that in our society that appears to work fairly well for them.

I guess what I am saying is that the whole system would work much better if people who love each other would try to take care of the others needs.  What is upsetting to me is that at least in our little corner of the universe, it appears that 95% of our women have apparently decided that their men are for some reason unworthy of having satisfaction from them regarding what is apparently a fairly powerful obsession.  And I ask why is that?  Would it really kill them to share a simple story with us before making love to their men?  To maybe have an open conversation from time to time about what turns them on and what turns us on?  Of course there are limits to what they should do for us just as there are limits on what we do for them.  But something?  Anything?  Please?  Anything?  Again as I said in my facebook post, if you found out your man had a foot fetish would you wear sexy shoes and paint your toenails?  If certain clothing was a turn on, would you wear it from time to time?  Just to make sure that it was you he thought of when he thought of his favorite turn on?  So then why is it with regard to this women seem to be so overwhelming 100% against it in any way, shape, or form?

[Patrick]

Yeah, what about just the basic old principle, applied to many types of relationships...

"Sometimes, I'll do (or talk with you about) stuff that YOU like, but which I'm not crazy about and, sometimes, YOU'LL do (or talk with me about) stuff that I like, but that you're not crazy about" ?

[lumberjack66]

Again, CFSupporter, there are many levels of "embrace".  Not sure how many of your husbands friends are into this as much as we are, and maybe those who are's wives would be afraid to challenge an experienced woman like yourself or anybody else for that matter.  But to whisper a simple sexy story into her man's ear about that secretary or waitress or whatever just to drive him wild?  Why the heck not!  Why leave them to fantasize about you instead of them?

[CecilBDmented]

I have been thinking about this a lot the last couple weeks.  Partly triggered by another topic here, partly because I am alone in a hotel and have too much time to think.  I implied in another post http://www.freecatfights.com/forums/index.php/topic,35474.0.html that women who do not embrace their mens fantasies may not really love them.  I was chastised a bit for this statement, but I stand by it.  One of the signs that you love somebody is your desire to please and take care of them.  This should work both ways.  I bring flowers,  write emails, letters, and poetry, call every single night I am on the road, do my best to take care of my wife's every need when I am home, tell her constantly I love her and that she is beautiful, never show interest in any female starlet or to the best of my abilities any other woman, and make every effort to please her in our bedroom no matter how I might feel when she is interested in sex.  If ladies watched a movie where the husband didn't do those things, I think the immediate assumption would be that he was selfish or cruel, didn't love her, and by the end of the movie either the lout would change or she would find true love with somebody else.  So why is it that the opposite is not true?  Why is it OK if the woman calls only when it is convenient, only makes love when she really wants to, can talk endlessly about romantic lead after romantic leads perfect lines or rippling abs, complains constantly that her man is not in the same shape he was 20 years ago, and refuses to have anything to do with the one thing that turns him on more than anything else in the world?  As human beings our sexuality is a big part of who we are.  Demanding that we somehow surrender that part of ourselves because it is inconvenient is not love, it is control.  In my case, I know a large part of why my wife reacts this way is the HORRIBLE advice she got from her friends when I revealed my secret.  As a result of that, decided to put an open letter to women offering my two cents on my facebook page https://www.facebook.com/ljack66 so maybe some of the ladies learning their man is into this might get some decent advice from one of us perverts afflicted with this obsession.

It is not that I think every woman whose man is into this needs to take up MMA classes.  There are a thousand things that you can do to embrace this to your individual tolerance level without ever so much as breaking a nail.  But based on my experience out here in cyberspace and years of conversations about 95% of women will have nothing to do with this fantasy no matter how much it turns their man on.  Some may tolerate it, but they will not speak about it, engage their men about it, or have anything to do with it.  How many things are there that women love their men to do that Men would so universally refuse to do?  What if 95% of men refused to buy their wives flowers, to hold their hand in public, or tell them they were beautiful?  What if 95% of us refused to hold you after we made love, or engage in foreplay?  Unthinkable. 

I know for myself, this is the prevailing force of my sexual identity for my entire life and my wife will have NOTHING to do with it.  Of course there are many things about her that turn me on, but this is the strongest sexual interest I have and she will not even talk to me about it even though she has physically fought other women or engaged in confrontations that easily could have resulted in all out fights in the past over things as trivial as a parking spot, a place in line, clothing in stores, or household appliances or nicknacks costing less than $10.  She of course tells me she loves me, but it is hard to accept when apparently I mean less to her than a $10 nicknack.

I have often told the women who engage in this for their husbands how amazing they are that they tell their husbands stories, or watch videos with them, chat in the chat rooms here with them, or engage in a bit of role play, or even do a bit of submission wrestling. glamor boxing,  or rules catfights for their men.  You are all amazing.  But really, don't you think you should be the norm and not the exception?

   Interesting post. Thanks.  One observation:  Do you really equate your phone calls, flowers and poetry to be the same level of sacrifice or effort as intimate physical competition with another person?  You might think differently if you and your wife's roles were reversed.  There is a certain mindset of women who consider any sexual arousal (the male's) from activity that involves the presence of another woman to be threatening or even degrading.  Your poetry, phone calls and flowers are something you can do on your own without necessarily having to offer yourself up to exposure.  Her embrace of your excitement with FvsF may never equal your expectations if your goal is for her to compete.  I think it may be a great move for you to find an outlet or focus for your FvsF that allows your to pursue your interests without fear or being judged or facing disdain from your SO.

   I used to date a woman who said she was really turned on watching guys jerk each other off. When she told me this I knew it wasn't an area I wanted to share or explore with her IRL or as a theme for movie night.  I had absolute zero intention of pursuing that genre to embrace her arousal/fantasy/fetish and decided we'd focus on other areas and she could explore that aspect of her sexuality by herself, or at least without my participation.  I don't regret it.  I don't feel bad about it.  It simply wasn't my cup of tea and she never pushed me or pressed me about it.  On the other hand she knew of my love of FvsF and sincerely enjoyed the subsequent boot Knocking sessions that followed. I never once considered her as a combatant or doing anything other than "watching with me", which was more than I was ready to do for her. Do you think your wife might be more open to watching FvsF with you if she knew you weren't harboring a desire to see her as a live FvsF combatant? You owe it to yourself to find a way you can enjoy and experience your FvsF fetish to the fullest whether that involve some level of participation with your wife or not.  Best of Luck figuring this out.

[cfight]

Good response CFsupporter. As I also stated in another post, my wife doesn't tell a story about her and another woman fighting, tho she does know about my fetish. When we're out together, especially at the mall I look to see if any women would match up with her and then think how they might start fighting. If we're at a holidy party or a wedding and I see her and another woman wearing dresses and pantyhose, I fantasize the 2 of them going outside and fight.

Believe me, I wouldn't want my wife to get into a real fight, just the thought of them rolling on the floor with their nylon clad legs tightly wrapped around each other, or both in tight jeans and bumping into one another in a store and starting something is what's exciting.

[lumberjack66]

Cecil, you have an interesting take on it.  I was not equating this directly to poetry or flowers.  But those are things men do for women because they love them, not because we are born poets or love flowers.  We do things for people we love.  Again, what I have been saying from the start is I am not surprised that women do not actually want to fight other women to turn their S.O. on.  There are things I probably could not do to turn my wife on, no matter how much I might want to.  But this is something that is very much a part of many if not most women's nature.  There is a reason women love the sound of a catfight.  There is a reason physical confrontation is a recurring theme in women's soap operas and it is not that they are appealing to our demographic.  Competition both physical and otherwise is as much a part of women's nature as it is part of men's nature.  Even if it wasn't, what kind of sacrifice would it be to tell a story?  Whisper something in our ear?  Maybe watch a video with us and comment on it?

You mentioned your former Girl Friends fascination with two guys jerking each other off.  First I would have to say that is a pretty fringe turn on for most women.  Second I am about as Homophobic a male as you will ever find so I can certainly understand why you would want to have nothing to do with that.  But assume for a moment you truly loved the woman, married her, and wanted her to be happy can you say you would have nothing to do with this no matter what?  I know in my case, if that was what made my wife horny, I'd probably get some videos about it, maybe surf the net with her, probably write her a story or two about it.  Not sure I could say I would actually do it.  Honestly homophobic enough I am not even sure I could physically do it.  Doubt I would personally ever be turned on by any of it.  But I'd probably at least consider it.  Maybe I am an anomaly on this, but I'd try to figure out how to make it work, try to turn her on.  And I think that is the point here.  Our little fetish is much more main stream and much more tame than just about any fantasy there is.  It is prominently featured on TV and in the Movies.  There are very few males that would not at least be a little turned on by it.  It may not be their "Thing", but it is still hot.  And still apparently the majority of our women, the women who say they love us above all others, don't feel the need to try to indulge us in any way, shape, or form.

[CecilBDmented]

Our little fetish is much more main stream and much more tame than just about any fantasy there is.  It is prominently featured on TV and in the Movies.  There are very few males that would not at least be a little turned on by it.  It may not be their "Thing", but it is still hot.  And still apparently the majority of our women, the women who say they love us above all others, don't feel the need to try to indulge us in any way, shape, or form

I agree %200! This is why we as male FvsF fans need to be proactive and stop waiting for or SOs, wives or GFs to whet this insatiable appetite or ours.  We should never have to feel embarrassed or set aside about stating what we want to see and how we like to see it.  Some of us are so ashamed of our fetish we won't even admit what we like to see to ourselves.  That's ridiculous.   This is why it's very important to support producers who make content that we like because it's the easiest thing to share.  As much as folks claim to hate Ultimate Surrender, I've had more conversations with women that are interested in doing FvsF because of them.  They've actually touched on an undiscovered FvsF market share: Women.

But assume for a moment you truly loved the woman, married her, and wanted her to be happy can you say you would have nothing to do with this no matter what?

AbsoMthrfckngLutely!   I have less than zero interest in my junk ever being in the hands of another man.  Hell - that's why I prefer women doctors. At least if they have to stick a finger up your ass it's more likely to be dainty.  It's like that beauty pageant many many years ago when they asked Ms. Taiwan (or maybe it was Ms. Philippines) if she would still love her man if she woke up the next morning and found that he had lost everything he owned.  Her answer was something like "Yes I would still love him, and miss him long long time". You know this must be very dated because today she'd probably say "As long as he didn't lose everything 'I' owned, we'd be ok."

Maybe I am an anomaly on this, but I'd try to figure out how to make it work, try to turn her on.  And I think that is the point here.  .

Then again, there is something to be said about working too hard.  ;-)

There is a reason women love the sound of a catfight.  There is a reason physical confrontation is a recurring theme in women's soap operas and it is not that they are appealing to our demographic.  Competition both physical and otherwise is as much a part of women's nature as it is part of men's nature.  Even if it wasn't, what kind of sacrifice would it be to tell a story?  Whisper something in our ear?  Maybe watch a video with us and comment on it?

Yes I agree - there is a reason.  It's just probably not the one that works in hand in hand with our fantasy. The Captain that lived down the block on the Air Force base I grew up in sent his smoking hot twin daughters to school for a reason. He wanted them to get an education.  It just wasn't the kind of education I wanted to give them. You're completely right.  What sacrifice would it be to tell you a story or fantasize with you just to get you worked up?  My guess is that I don't think she should have the power to deliver or deny your pursuit of FvsF. Question:  If you met a woman that loved FvsF, was reasonably attractive (i.e. well above Ofectau's "Mendoza" line) and would wrestle in front of you with another woman but didn't want to have sex with you, would you hang out with her in a platonic relationship to fufill your FvsF appetite?

[lumberjack66]

[/quote]
Question:  If you met a woman that loved FvsF, was reasonably attractive (i.e. well above Ofectau's "Mendoza" line) and would wrestle in front of you with another woman but didn't want to have sex with you, would you hang out with her in a platonic relationship to fufill your FvsF appetite?


[/quote]

I'd really have to think about it, but probably would not.  If there was nothing sexual about this too me, that would be fine.  But this is too closely linked to my sexuality.  I consider the net my outlet.  100% safe way to get it out of my system, no direct contact, completely anonymous.  Having a wrestling female friend in a platonic relationship... not sure how long I could watch before it wasn't platonic for me.  A friends wife would be safe.  Going to a mud wrestling event or other public event would be fine.  Me alone in the room with two female wrestlers knowing that my wife would not do any of this for me... not sure even my unshakable commitment could survive that one.  And I guess that is part of my question here... why would the love of my life leave me vulnerable like that when it is so easy to take care of?